Russia threatens the United States of America. Get ready for war hippies

[Saleen]

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5ixGLZMVrhya47VdMsSLu57wvhiAQ


But the comments by Bush, who postponed his vacation plans for a day or so to track the crisis, drew an angry response from Moscow.


"The Georgian leadership is a special project for the United States," Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said, quoted by Interfax news agency.


"At some time it will be necessary to choose between supporting this virtual project and real partnership on questions which actually require collective action."


cliffs: Georgia is one of the USA's few unconditional allies in the world and have been invaded by the Russian army.



That being said...

Putin has an agenda. Now he is the PM and will be around for another few years. Next thing you know they will amend the constitution and he will be re-elected once again. Russia can't be trusted, and never could be trusted. They need to be kept at bay. Give them one small opportunity and look what happens, an independent nation is being invaded, under the pretext of protecting "Russian citizens" who are Georgians and South Ossetians given Russian citizenship. How about the separatists, the weapons they have were being supplied to them by Russia, is that keeping the peace or fueling the fire?

This is getting ugly fast. Russia has already made threats such as "Poland and the Baltic nations will pay for criticizing Russia's actions in Georgia" as well as similar threats made towards Ukraine as well. Ukraine has threatened to not let Russian ships blockading the Georgian coast return to port if they continue this campaign. Whether they would go through with that or not I don't know, but such a move would be very ballsy. The undertone of their entire campaign seems to be hell bent on conquest. The Russians cannot, and should not be ever trusted, their past 100 years of history do nothing but confirm this. There is a reason all ex-Soviet bloc member states are all trying to break away from Russia's influence. Everybody is sick and tired of their menacing and bullying, and blackmailing with their gas. The farther a country is from Russia, the better off it is.

After the war in Poland there was talk about who was worse, the Russians, or the Germans? Some people couldn't pick, and said that the difference was a German would shoot you in your face, while a Russian would shoot you in the back. True words.


im moving to Nicaragua... nice knowing all of you :puppy_dog

[Gnioss]

1957 called, they want their worldview back.

[Ablate]

I don't understand? Georgia poked a sleeping bear, except it wasn't really asleep, and it was REALLY pissed off.

[Diraker]

I had a russian friend in college. Once he told me that, as a boy, he played ice hockey. I was like, "wow that's cool!". I figured russian ice hockey was all bad ass...Anyway turns out he's playing with sticks, boots, and a ball on a frozen lake. My ex-girl friend was ukrainian (her heritage...she was american 1st generation) and her family fled from there. Life in russia was horrible; dolling out milk, ridiculous forced farming psuedoscientific nonsense, etc...that and nazi's rolling in and shit.

Anyway I don't know much about the conflict going on over there. And I suppose I can arm chair quarterback but I don't wanna. What's sad is that I have zero confidence in my American leaders. Afterall Bush looked into Putin's eyes and saw that he was a good man!

And of course there's the elephant in the room. The US invades nations...but I guess that's ok.

I just hope the situation doesn't erupt into something bigger and a peaceful outcome can be achieved.

[Mutt]

Didnt the Georgians fire missles at Russia first?

[Drekor]

Didnt the Georgians fire missles at Russia first?
Really didn't have anything directly to do with Russia itself, but with an ally of theirs South Ossetia which broke off from Georgia(on bad terms to).

I don't know all the details but Georgia should know if you shove a little kid around his big brother might come kick your ass. That's pretty much whats happening. The US really really shouldn't get involved, they've got a horrible reputation on an international stage already and if they support Georgia it's going to backfire badly on them. Think of it like someone backing China in their little dispute with Tibet(not a popular thing to do these days!), it's practically the same thing.

If the US wants to get involved they need to do it under the guise of the UN or NATO, if they do it by themselves... things will go from bad to worse in a hurry.

[Silver]

My wife is Russian.

[Konrad]

Really didn't have anything directly to do with Russia itself, but with an ally of theirs South Ossetia which broke off from Georgia(on bad terms to).



South Ossetia and Azkhania are both territories of Georgia which have been in some state of rebellion for over a decade. For the past two years Russia has been increasingly provocative in its actions in these regions and towards Georgia, including cutting off energy supplies, defacto naval embargos, and issuing residents of South Ossetia and Azkhania Russian passports. The latter being a clear violation of both international law and national soveriegnty.

Over the past few months, rebels from South Ossetia had been making attacks into other Georgian territories and against Georgian interests in South Ossetia itself. When Georgia moved its troops against these rebels they were legitimately moving on their own sovereign soil. Russia had illegaly placed "peacekeepers" in the form of elite military units stationed in South Ossetia who involved themselves in the fighting. The deaths of several of the peacekeepers and "Russian citizens" (Georgian citizens who had been given Russian passports) are the reasons that Russia used for their invasion of sovereign territory.

[Mutt]

Still seems more justifiable than Iraq imo.

[Konrad]

...except that our invasion of Iraq was justified by multiple UN resolutions. However, international law is such a murky subject anyways, considering the UN in itself is not a sovereign body, justifiability really means jack.

So, looking at the Georgia situation from both a realpolitik and idealistic standpoint it is imperative that the United States and the rest of the West take a firm stance in support of Georgia and in opposition to Russia. Georgia is a standard for how a formerly autocratic and socialist country can take incredible steps forward towards liberalization (I can detail this if need be). Russia on the other hand has never given up the dictatorial bent that many thought it shed after the collapse of the Soviet Union, and in recent years has been increasing central control at an alarming pace and has been attempting to subvert its former subject's progress economically, politically, and now militarily.

As much as you might like to complain about the United States you are incredibly naive and downright foolish to prefer the re-emergence of a powerful Russia or the emergence of communist China to the relatively benevolent superpower that the United States has been for the past 20 years.

[Mutt]

lol fear the big bad communist China?

Have you even been there? One could argue that there is a purer free market system in China than the US.

Besides China is going to face major hurdles in the next 20 years in matters not related to their economy.

[Konrad]

Infusion of market-like principles into an economic scheme does not make it a liberal free market. The Chinese economy is still extremely highly regulated and collusion with government officials is still the most determining factor in the success or failure of an enterprise. Their economic system very closely resembles the economic systems of Germany and Italy in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and we all know what happened there. Combine these economic truths with their rapid modernization and expansion of their military, their severe population and resource needs. and their loathing of anything resembling liberty or personal freedoms and I definitely see a need to be wary. Can you honestly say that a Chinese superpower would be better for peace, prosperity, and human freedom than the United States?

[Mutt]

Why does one have to be better than another? Why cant both work towards betterment of their people and the world?

[Silver]

Besides China is going to face major hurdles in the next 20 years in matters not related to their economy.

Such as?

[Spiker]

Mutt yer such a troll.

[Konrad]

Why does one have to be better than another? Why cant both work towards betterment of their people and the world?

Well my belief is that personal freedom and liberty should be the ultimate goal of government and mankind. Collectivism, particularly the brand practiced by communist China, is antithetical to this belief. Therefor those two belief structures cannot coexist in a way that they can "work towards the betterment of the people and the world".

[Mutt]

Such as?Growing disparity between wealthy and poor. A vastly underdeveloped west in comparison to the eastern coasts. Major effects of pollution on water ways and oceans. And the fact that theres a billion people to feed and food isnt becoming anymore plentiful.

[Mutt]

Well my belief is that personal freedom and liberty should be the ultimate goal of government and mankind. Collectivism, particularly the brand practiced by communist China, is antithetical to this belief. Therefor those two belief structures cannot coexist in a way that they can "work towards the betterment of the people and the world".So... because you say so?

[Mutt]

Mutt yer such a troll.I disagree

[Konrad]

So... because you say so?

What? How can you expect two philosophies about the role of government that are in direct conflict with one another to somehow "work together"? The one philosophy believes that individuals are entitled to rights and freedoms and that the function of the state is to protect and propogate those rights and freedoms. The other philosophy believes that individuals are subject to the needs and aims of the community as determined by the state and it is the state which serves as the central function of such activity.

These two philosophies of government cannot coexist. That is the meaning of the word, "antithetical". You cannot have one and also have the other and they surely cannot "work together" for any purpose. I don't understand why that is hard to grasp.

[Mutt]

Maybe it should be left up the countries people to decide how they want their government to be run? Personal freedom and all is great imo, but Im not convinced it works for every single case out there. Alot of people prefer to just live their lives and let the government deal with the issues of the nation.

[Kydorias]

Maybe it should be left up the countries people to decide how they want their government to be run?Hah this cracks me up. And how much say does the Chinese citizen have in how thier government is run? Look at how the different governments (China vs. US) deal with people who speak out against the state. Then try and talk about the two countries "working together for the betterment of mankind".

If the US were like China, Diraker would already be in the gulag breaking big rocks into little rocks for his disrespectful mocking of our great and glorious supreme leader. Comrade Bush displayed our enlightening symbol in such a way as to be correct in his most wonderful and all knowing vision. All loyal citizens of the state know and understand this.

[Diraker]

McCain's WSJ op-ed. Anyway expect the right to be trumping this up because it's going to be on their agenda. For most people the war on terror just isn't working anymore so there must be a new enemy. But we'll see. Again I hope for quick and peaceful resolutions.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121867081398238807.html?mod=opinion_main_comment aries

[Mutt]

Hah this cracks me up. And how much say does the Chinese citizen have in how thier government is run? Look at how the different governments (China vs. US) deal with people who speak out against the state. Then try and talk about the two countries "working together for the betterment of mankind".

If the US were like China, Diraker would already be in the gulag breaking big rocks into little rocks for his disrespectful mocking of our great and glorious supreme leader. Comrade Bush displayed our enlightening symbol in such a way as to be correct in his most wonderful and all knowing vision. All loyal citizens of the state know and understand this.Never been there right? Not even Hong Kong?

Im not saying China is doing no wrong, but you are sorely mistaken if you think any country does not have faults.

[Kydorias]

Never been there right? Not even Hong Kong?Been to Hong Kong and Beijing on vacation, Shanghai for business. Overall I love the people and the country even if the government is extremely oppressive.

Im not saying China is doing no wrong, but you are sorely mistaken if you think any country does not have faults.Of course I'm not saying that. But when you make a statement along the lines of "let the people decide what government they want" while disparaging the US and praising China in this and other posts, I have to laugh.

[Mutt]

Of course I'm not saying that. But when you make a statement along the lines of "let the people decide what government they want" while disparaging the US and praising China in this and other posts, I have to laugh.When did I disparage the US? They and other countries have done alot of good in the world. Theres also been alot of bad done by many as well. Pol Pot in Cambodia is a good example of that. No one did shit while Pol Pot took control and 30% of the population was killed. But as soon as Communist Vietnam took them over, now its time for the US to back one insurgent group, China to sell arms to another insurgent group and for the world to bicker over the status of the UN seat.

Would freedom of the press be a good thing in China? Yes, and its getting there. It takes time and will likely take a generational change to do so.

Should the government be less heavy handed with criminals? Probably.

But is China murdering and torturing 30% of its population? No.

Is its populace harranged and crushed due to an overbearing government? no. Infact quite the opposite.

[Kydorias]

When did I disparage the US?Disparage was a strong word, I'll take that back. But promoting China while simultaneously talking about "letting citizens determine their government" is laughable.

Pol Pot in Cambodia is a good example of that. No one did shit while Pol Pot took control and 30% of the population was killed. But as soon as Communist Vietnam took them over, now its time for the US to back one insurgent group, China to sell arms to another insurgent group and for the world to bicker over the status of the UN seat.If we weren't so war weary after our involvement in Vietnam maybe we would have intervened more directly in Cambodia. Results probably would have been the same as Vietnam. Who's to say that a proxy war with China in Cambodia wasn't a better option than an overt shooting match?

Would freedom of the press be a good thing in China? Yes, and its getting there. It takes time and will likely take a generational change to do so.Are you kidding me? Its only better because of the internet and because its a lot harder to censor than more traditional media. Even still they (allegedly - but I don't doubt) have a whole government bureau devoted to internet "security" (i.e. censure).

But is China murdering and torturing 30% of its population? No.Just like Cambodia, China had a period where the educated bourgeois were dragged out into the street and shot. Check out the Cultural Revolution.

Is its populace harranged and crushed due to an overbearing government? no. Infact quite the opposite.What?? Have you ever heard of Tianamen square? What about the hundreds of Chinese citizens who were evicted and homes bulldozed so the government could put up snazzy new Olympic venues? Would the citizens of Tibet agree with your statement? I won't even insult any reader's intelligence by posting one of thousands of stories about political dissidents being jailed for simply disagreeing with the Communist party.

[Diraker]

I dislike The Nation and it's heavily biased but there was an interesting article that sort of connects some dots regarding Russia Georgia and the neocon agenda. And I linked to the WSJ before so...

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080818/scheer2

What is at work here is a neoconservative, self-fulfilling prophecy in which Russia is turned into an enemy that ramps up its largely reduced military, and Putin is cast as the new Joseph Stalin bogeyman, evoking images of the old Soviet Union. McCain has condemned a "revanchist Russia" that should once again be contained. Although Putin has been the enormously popular elected leader of post-Communist Russia, it is assumed that imperialism is always lurking, not only in his DNA but in that of the Russian people.

[Kydorias]

Damn you've got it figured out. Putin and Saakashvilli are super sekret members of the neocon illuminati along with Bush, Cheney, and McCain. This is all a vast global conspiracy for America and the UN to take over the world starting with Central Eurasia.

[Diraker]

More like McCain's senior foreign advisor is a prominent neocon PNAC type (so this is in regards to foreign policy) who was a paid lobbyist for the Georgian government. And that for the past several years the US has been grooming the Georgian president to be a thorn in Russia's side. There was another article in the Washington Post about it too. Make of these connections and claims whatever you will.

[Mutt]

What about the hundreds of Chinese citizens who were evicted and homes bulldozed so the government could put up snazzy new Olympic venues?You talk like the police came in and threw people out. The gf's parents own a few houses in Guangzhou and there was a situation like this while we were there.

They had just bought an older townhouse and was just finished renovating it to live in. A government planning committee came along and determined that the house was in the path of a new road that needed to be put in place. They were paid market value + a percentage extra to make finding a new place easier.

The same kind of thing occurs in North America all the time, with the same conclusions eventually, except its dragged out in courts and usually fought tooth and nail by a few that dont care about the needs of the city as a whole, just how it impacts their lives.

And while you can appreciate making sure that everyone is given their due notice to do right by everyone, in a country of a billion people such liberties are extremely cumbersom and are cut in favour of what is an extremely efficient process.

You have to realize that Chinese culture is thousands of years of building new upon the old and that its generally accepted because it by and large only occurs when there is a direct benefit for the whole as a result.

As well the younger generation (I agree as you said as its mainly the internet generation) are not so supportive of the heavy handed approach to dissention, although they understand how dangerous political upheaval can be to the countries ascension. I dont think until these people are in the nations power band (around the 40's) will there be wide scale changes.

[Drekor]

Can you honestly say that a Chinese superpower would be better for peace, prosperity, and human freedom than the United States?
Yup


Well my belief is that personal freedom and liberty should be the ultimate goal of government and mankind
Might want to leave the US then as your government prefers to take away freedoms and liberties to chase shadows and those that they don't take away they prefer to abuse so that they can earn more money and prestige.

At least we could get cheap electronics with Chinese overlords.

Also on the war on iraq being justified with UN resolutions? you mean this one?
http://daccessdds.un.org/doc/UNDOC/GEN/N02/682/26/PDF/N0268226.pdf?OpenElement

Because it's quite clear that it should not lead to armed conflict not only that but when the Secretary General Annan called it Illegal that pretty much stuck the nail in the coffin there.

The actual resolution the US(along with UK and spain I think it was?) that put forth a resolution stating that iraq had failed to live up to resolution 1441 was withdrawn because people were afraid it would be vetoed which would effectively make it official that the war would be illegal. I should mention this was on top of the fact that after resolution 1441 there was a mild positive reaction from iraq in terms of cooperation.

[Konrad]

You have to realize that Chinese culture is thousands of years of building new upon the old and that its generally accepted because it by and large only occurs when there is a direct benefit for the whole as a result.



Were the millions who were slaughtered in "re-education camps" a part of this process?

[Mutt]

Were the millions who were slaughtered in "re-education camps" a part of this process?Many countries have dark spots in their social evolution. You know like slavery, nuking hundreds of thousands of civilians, etc. Is it right? No. The key is to learn from the past not live in it.

[Belontic]

You talk like the police came in and threw people out. The gf's parents own a few houses in Guangzhou and there was a situation like this while we were there.

They had just bought an older townhouse and was just finished renovating it to live in. A government planning committee came along and determined that the house was in the path of a new road that needed to be put in place. They were paid market value + a percentage extra to make finding a new place easier.

The same kind of thing occurs in North America all the time, with the same conclusions eventually, except its dragged out in courts and usually fought tooth and nail by a few that dont care about the needs of the city as a whole, just how it impacts their lives.

And while you can appreciate making sure that everyone is given their due notice to do right by everyone, in a country of a billion people such liberties are extremely cumbersom and are cut in favour of what is an extremely efficient process.

You have to realize that Chinese culture is thousands of years of building new upon the old and that its generally accepted because it by and large only occurs when there is a direct benefit for the whole as a result.

As well the younger generation (I agree as you said as its mainly the internet generation) are not so supportive of the heavy handed approach to dissention, although they understand how dangerous political upheaval can be to the countries ascension. I dont think until these people are in the nations power band (around the 40's) will there be wide scale changes.

Actually Mutt, it's not always true either.

About 8 years or so ago, Children's Hospital in Oakland wanted to expand its facilities and create a parking lot. Across the street of the hospital, there were residential housing. I believe 5 or so houses.

After negotiations and drawing up plans, 4 of the 5 residents agreed to move. I believe they were paid for market value + extra.

The 5th guy, refused to move. So instead, they built the new facilities around his home. Imagine an upside down "U" shape with the house at the opening while the rest of structure was built around the home.

[Mutt]

You're right its not always true as it depends on whats being done. But by and large the majority do

[Roxie]

You talk like the police came in and threw people out. The gf's parents own a few houses in Guangzhou and there was a situation like this while we were there.

Guangzhou, really? Can they get me some fake Louis Vuitton?

[Dong]

I'm with Mutt regarding China. The Chinese are always so nice to me when they offer me gold in MMOs.

[Cinnabar]

I'm with Mutt regarding China. The Chinese are always so nice to me when they offer me gold in MMOs.

Your time is precious so don't waste. 9.99 for 10g.

[Yoma]

South Ossetia and Azkhania are both territories of Georgia which have been in some state of rebellion for over a decade. For the past two years Russia has been increasingly provocative in its actions in these regions and towards Georgia, including cutting off energy supplies, defacto naval embargos, and issuing residents of South Ossetia and Azkhania Russian passports. The latter being a clear violation of both international law and national soveriegnty.

Over the past few months, rebels from South Ossetia had been making attacks into other Georgian territories and against Georgian interests in South Ossetia itself. When Georgia moved its troops against these rebels they were legitimately moving on their own sovereign soil. Russia had illegaly placed "peacekeepers" in the form of elite military units stationed in South Ossetia who involved themselves in the fighting. The deaths of several of the peacekeepers and "Russian citizens" (Georgian citizens who had been given Russian passports) are the reasons that Russia used for their invasion of sovereign territory.

Well, you throw around words like international law and sovereignty, but that oversimplifies the issue. Mostly, South Ossetia identify themselves as Russian, not Georgian. And by mostly I mean about 70 percent of the population. South Ossetia has been in "rebellion" since the Soviet Union collapsed and shed it's satellites. Compare this to how Czechoslovakia split (peacefully) into the Czech Republic and Slovokia post Soviet era along ethnic lines. However, for various reasons Georgia wanted to hold onto South Ossetia. Now Georgia wants to join NATO and pull in South Ossetia with it, but the people of South Ossetia want no part of it.

[Silver]

Country Reports on Human Rights Practices - China (includes Tibet, Hong Kong, and Macau) 2007
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor
March 11, 2008

a. Arbitrary or Unlawful Deprivation of Life

During the year the government and its agents reportedly committed arbitrary or unlawful killings. No official statistics on deaths in custody were available. On January 5, 18 persons were killed and 17 were arrested during a raid at a location in the XUAR that Chinese officials called a terrorist training base. On February 27, Xu Hongmei and Shen Zili, two women who were arrested in January for Falun Gong activities, died after they were reportedly tortured by security forces. On March 22, local procuracy officials detained a Guilin judge, Li Chaoyang, on bribery allegations. After family members learned that Li was dead, they examined the body and found that Li was missing several teeth and had a stitched-up face wound. On May 28, local procuracy officials detained Lianyungang City electric utility official Liang Xuping, and Liang subsequently died. Liang's body was bruised, but officials claimed Liang died of a heart attack.

There were no developments in the investigation of the 2006 shooting of Tibetan nun Kelsang Namtso, who was shot and killed when People's Armed Police at the Nangpa La pass fired at a group of approximately 70 Tibetans, or the 2005 police killing of at least three protesters in Dongzhou Village, Guangdong Province.

Trials involving capital offenses sometimes took place under circumstances involving severe lack of due process and with no meaningful appeal. Some executions took place on the day of conviction or failed appeal. Executions of Uighurs whom authorities accused of separatism, but which some observers claimed were politically motivated, were reported. On February 8, authorities executed Ismail Semed, an ethnic Uighur from the XUAR, following 2005 convictions for "attempting to split the motherland" and other counts related to possession of firearms and explosives.

c. Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman, or Degrading Treatment or Punishment

The law forbids prison guards from extracting confessions by torture, insulting prisoners' dignity, and beating or encouraging others to beat prisoners. However, in November 2006 the Supreme People's Procuratorate (SPP) Deputy Secretary Wang Zhenchuan acknowledged that illegal interrogation by "atrocious torture" existed in local judicial practice throughout China and that almost all mishandled criminal cases in the previous year involved the "shadow of illegal interrogation." Wang estimated that at least 30 wrongful convictions were issued each year because of torture. In addition there continued to be frequent reports that police and other elements of the security apparatus employed widespread torture and degrading treatment when dealing with some detainees and prisoners.

During the year there were reports that officials used electric shocks, beatings, shackles, and other forms of abuse. In February and March legal advisor and rights activist Guo Feixiong (also known as Yang Maodong) reportedly suffered repeated torture, including electric shocks and being tied to a "tiger bench" for four hours. When on a "tiger bench" the victim reportedly sits on a bench with legs tied stretched out straight on the bench and hands tied behind a vertical back support. Bricks or other hard objects are then pushed under the victim's legs or feet, causing the legs to bend upwards, sometimes until they break. The abuse reportedly drove Guo to attempt suicide. In June Guo Feixiong's wife reportedly sent an open letter to UN Special Rapporteur on Torture Manfred Nowak detailing her husband's abuse in prison, which included beatings with electric police batons when Guo refused to make a confession. On September 29, rights defender Li Heping reportedly was detained for six hours by plainclothes assailants who beat and tortured him with cattle prods before releasing him. In October a recently released cellmate of land activist Yang Chunlin reported that Yang was tortured in prison, including having his legs and arms stretched and chained to four corners of an iron bed for days.

In June 2006 authorities detained and beat Alim and Ablikim, the sons of prominent Uighur human rights activist Rebiya Kadeer, and Alim reportedly confessed to the charges against him after being tortured by security officials. In 2006 Beijing-based petitioner leader Ye Guozhu reportedly was tortured and abused in prison, including beatings with electric batons, suspension from the ceiling by his arms, and shackled and forced to sit in extreme positions for extended periods of time. In June the Guangzhou Intermediate Court convicted a police officer of beating to death a fraud suspect, Wang Weiqing, in 2002. Prosecutors determined that 40 officers in the local public security bureau (PSB) conspired to conceal the beating. Many alleged acts of torture occurred in pretrial criminal detention centers or reeducation-through-labor centers.

In March 2006 UN Special Rapporteur Nowak reaffirmed earlier findings that torture, although on a decline--particularly in urban areas--remained widespread, and that procedural and substantive measures were inadequate to prevent torture. Nowak reported that beatings with fists, sticks, and electric batons continued to be the most common forms of torture. He also found that prisoners continued to suffer cigarette burns, prolonged periods of solitary confinement, and submersion in water or sewage, and that they were made to hold extreme positions for long periods, were denied medical treatment, and were forced to do hard labor. Death row inmates were shackled or handcuffed 24 hours per day and systematically abused to break their will and force confessions. According to Nowak, officials specifically targeted for abuse house church groups, Falun Gong adherents, Tibetans, and Uighur prisoners. Nowak reported that Falun Gong practitioners accounted for 66 percent of victims of alleged torture while in government custody. Since the crackdown on Falun Gong began in 1999, estimates of the number of Falun Gong adherents who died in custody due to torture, abuse, and neglect ranged from several hundred to a few thousand.

Sexual and physical abuse and extortion occurred in some detention centers. Falun Gong activists reported that police raped female practitioners, including in 2005 at the Dongchengfang police station in Tunzhou City, Hebei Province, where two women were allegedly raped while in detention.

According to foreign researchers, the country had 20 ankang institutions (high-security psychiatric hospitals for the criminally insane) directly administered by the Ministry of Public Security. Persons committed to these institutions had no mechanism for objecting to public security officials' determinations of mental illness. Some dissidents, persistent petitioners, and others were housed with mentally ill patients in these institutions. Patients in these hospitals were reportedly given medicine against their will and forcibly subjected to electric shock treatment. The regulations for committing a person to an ankang facility were not clear. Political activists, underground religious believers, persons who repeatedly petitioned the government, members of the banned China Democratic Party (CDP), and Falun Gong adherents reportedly were incarcerated in such facilities during the year. Activists sentenced to administrative detention also reported they were strapped to beds or other devices for days at a time, beaten, forcibly injected or fed medications, and denied food and use of toilet facilities.

From January to May prosecutors nationwide investigated 2,808 cases of dereliction of duty and infringement of rights by officials, involving 3,470 persons. This represented an 8.3 percent increase in cases from the same period in 2006. In 2006 the SPP and the courts issued directives to eliminate interrogation through torture. By September 2,829 procuratorates throughout China had begun audio and video taping police interrogations, in some cases to prevent coerced confessions. Beginning in September Beijing and several other cities launched campaigns providing that police officers who obtain coerced confessions can be suspended.

Prison and Detention Center Conditions

According to 2005 official statistics, the Ministry of Justice administered more than 700 prisons with a population of more than 1.8 million inmates. In addition 30 jails for juveniles held approximately 22,000 juvenile offenders. The country also operated hundreds of administrative detention centers, which were run by security ministries and administered separately from the formal court system.

Conditions in penal institutions for both political prisoners and common criminals generally were harsh and degrading. Prisoners and detainees often were kept in overcrowded conditions with poor sanitation. Inadequate prison capacity was an increasing problem in some areas. Food often was inadequate and of poor quality, and many detainees relied on supplemental food and medicines provided by relatives; some prominent dissidents were not allowed to receive such goods.

Many inmates in penal and reeducation-through-labor facilities were required to work, with minimal or no remuneration. In some cases prisoners worked in facilities directly connected with penal institutions; in other cases they were contracted to nonprison enterprises. Former prison inmates reported that workers who refused to work in some prisons were beaten. Facilities and their management profited from inmate labor.

In January Ministry of Health spokesman Mao Qunan reportedly acknowledged that the government harvested organs from executed prisoners. On May 1, new regulations came into effect that include a ban on the trade of human organs and on live organ transplants from persons under the age of 18. The regulations also stipulate that the donation of human organs for transplant should be free and voluntary. However, the new regulations make no specific reference to the extraction of organs from death penalty prisoners.

Adequate, timely medical care for prisoners remained a serious problem, despite official assurances that prisoners have the right to prompt medical treatment. On July 1, Shanghai petitioner Chen Xiaoming died the day he was released from custody on medical parole. According to media reports, authorities refused earlier requests by the family for medical parole and only allowed the family to provide Chen with medication one time during his detention. Labor activist Yao Fuxin remained in prison in very poor health, and authorities denied his family's request for medical parole. Labor union leader Wang Sen remained in prison and was also reportedly in poor health. Wang applied for medical parole but was also denied. During the year cyber dissident He Depu's health reportedly deteriorated significantly due to medical neglect and maltreatment. However, prison officials stated that his condition would have to deteriorate further before he could be considered for medical parole. Journalist Ching Cheong's health also deteriorated, and in August the Hong Kong Journalists Association sent an open letter to President Hu Jintao urging authorities to grant him medical parole. Many other prisoners with serious health concerns remained in prison at year's end. Prison officials often denied privileges, including the ability to purchase outside food, make telephone calls, and receive family visits, to those who refused to acknowledge guilt.

Conditions in administrative detention facilities, such as reeducation-through-labor camps, were similar to those in prisons. Beating deaths occurred in administrative detention and reeducation-through-labor facilities.

The law requires juveniles to be held separately from adults, unless facilities are insufficient. In practice children sometimes were held with adult prisoners and required to work. Political prisoners were segregated from each other and placed with common criminals, who sometimes beat political prisoners at the instigation of guards. Newly arrived prisoners or those who refused to acknowledge committing crimes were particularly vulnerable to beatings.

The government generally did not permit independent monitoring of prisons or reeducation-through-labor camps, and prisoners remained inaccessible to local and international human rights organizations, media groups, and the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

d. Arbitrary Arrest or Detention

Arbitrary arrest and detention remained serious problems. The law permits police and security authorities to detain persons without arresting or charging them. Because the government tightly controlled information, it was impossible to determine accurately the total number of persons subjected to arbitrary arrest or detention. According to 2005 official statistics, 500,000 persons were held in 310 reeducation-through-labor camps. In 2004 special administrative detention facilities held more than 350,000 offenders.

Role of the Police and Security Apparatus

The security apparatus is made up of the Ministries of State Security and Public Security, the People's Armed Police, the People's Liberation Army (PLA), and the state judicial, procuratorial, and penal systems. The Ministries of State Security and Public Security and the People's Armed Police were responsible for internal security. SPP and SPC officials admitted that courts and prosecutors often deferred to the security ministries on policy matters and individual cases. The SPP was responsible for the investigation of corruption and duty crimes. The PLA was responsible for external security but also had some domestic security responsibilities.

The Ministry of Public Security (MPS) coordinates the country's law enforcement, which is administratively organized into local, county, provincial, and specialized police agencies. Recent efforts have been made to strengthen historically weak regulation and management of law enforcement agencies; however, judicial oversight was limited, and checks and balances were absent. Corruption at the local level was widespread. Police officers reportedly coerced victims, took individuals into custody without just cause, arbitrarily collected fees from individuals charged with crimes, and mentally and physically abused victims and perpetrators.

The SPP acknowledged continuing widespread abuse in law enforcement. In July 2006 the SPP issued new standards for prosecuting official abuses of power. Domestic news media reported the convictions of several public security officials who had beaten to death suspects or prisoners in their custody. Nonetheless, investigation of misconduct typically only came in response to publicity, public pressure, and persistent efforts by relatives of victims to petition the government. In July 2006 an SPP spokesperson said there were many abuse of power cases that the procuratorates did not dare handle.

I think you get the point but if you want to read more see: http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2007/100518.htm

[Diraker]

And here what China thinks of us.

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-03/13/content_7779839.htm

The State Department of the United States released its Country Reports on Human Rights Practices for 2007 on March 11, 2008. As in previous years, the reports are full of accusations of the human rights situation in more than 190 countries and regions including China but mention nothing of the widespread human rights abuses on its own territory. The Human Rights Record of the United States in 2007 is prepared to help people around the world understand the real situation of human rights in the United States and as a reminder for the United States to reflect upon its own issues. ...

I'll just paraphrase because none of this should come as a surprise to anyone. And it's not like I agree with China and hate the US. Rather I think that those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones...that to let he who without sin cast the first stone...that you must be the change you want to see in the world.

They talk about violent crime, especially gun violence. They point out some ridiculous high violent death rates in our population.Then they mention things like police brutality and judges imposing cruel sentences. They mention how the US has the largest prisons in the world and the mistreatment of innmates. They talk about inadequate medicine regarding AIDS in prisons.

They go on to talk about the patriot act and other civil rights issues in the US. They talk about the decline of labor partys and how money rules politics. They talk about how the US government manipulates the US press.

They go on to talk about class imbalance in the US and the struggling economy as it relates to people. They talk about the hungry and homeless in the US and about the lack of public health care.

Then they talk about racism in the US. Economic and judicial racism. They talk about pedophilia and hate crimes. They talk about the treatment of women and children. Discrimination against women and how there are many poor children here in the US despite the US being a wealthy nation. They talk about boot camps (like those juvenile hall camp things) and sex slaves. They talk about using the death penalty on children and how in the US children are not treated properly in courts.

And then of course there's the US history of agrression, like in Iraq. They talk about Blackwater and killing civilians, secret prisons, rendition, etc.

[Silver]

Maybe you should move to China.

And btw...

I have represented dozens of individuals from China who have applied for asylum in the United States. I can't go into too many details, but I think it is safe to say that the Department of State report is spot on.

Some examples of the fun types of stuff that my clients have suffered at the hands of the Chinese government:

"Tiger Bench"

"Tiger bench" is a small iron bench. It is approximately 20 cm (8 inches) tall. The victim's hands are tied together behind the back while his knees are tied down to a bench. Some hard objects such as bricks are inserted under the tied legs, causing the legs to bend upward in an unnatural way that causes them to break at the knees.

"Water Jail" or "Water Dungeon"

Water dungeon is a grotesque torture. A victim is stripped down to underwear or naked and locked into a small iron cage with spikes on all sides. The cage is lowered into filthy water up to the victim's chest or neck. The room is completely dark, and the victim is locked in the cage for days or even weeks, and urine and feces are excreted into the water.


"Di Lao" or "Hell Confinement"

The "Di Lao" device includes a pair of handcuffs and a pair of foot-shackles, which are linked together with crossed steel or iron chains. There are two types, one shown in a) and the other b). The handcuff length in a) is 1.2 feet and the distance from the handcuff to foot-shackle is 1.5 feet. The foot-shackle in b) is not movable, thus it rubs the feet and causes bleeding. Such instruments make it very difficult and some-times impossible for victims to walk, sit down, use the toilet or feed themselves.


"Death Board" or "Death Bed"

The "death board" (or "death bed") is a particularly hideous torture device. It is an iron or wood board with handcuffs and shackles to lock the victims four limbs in a stretched position. A victim is usually confined to a death board for a minimum of seven days. As movement is completely restricted, the confinement of a victim on the death bed leads to painful muscular atrophy. In severe cases, the victim even loses control of bladder and bowel movements. The excretion of stool and urine is directly on the iron bed, resulting in an unsanitary condition. To save them-selves the trouble of cleaning, the torturers usually strip the victim down to a T-shirt or even naked, adding to the humiliation. Since the victim is not released from the board for many days, torture on the death board is usually coupled with the torture of force-feeding.

http://www.falunhr.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1321&Itemid=0

These are all regular methods of torture in China, and the physical and mental scars stay with the victim forever.

I find it a bit disgusting for anyone to unfavorably compare the United States government with the Chinese government.

[Diraker]

Pointing out flaws in other country's doesn't wipe away the flaws in your own country. And at least here, We the People, can actually do something about it. That we the people allow for some of the shit our government does, is what IMO is disgusting.

eta: And I made exactly one post about China (my other comments are about Russia) which I tried to only put forth very general opinion. But maybe Silver's comments about moving to China and so forth aren't directed at me. All I did was to point out how China responded to his link.

[Mourne]

Pointing out flaws in other country's doesn't wipe away the flaws in your own country. And at least here, We the People, can actually do something about it. That we the people allow for some of the shit our government does, is what IMO is disgusting.

In We the People's defense (at least in some instances) we don't "as a whole" find out about our government's transgressions until it's too late. Like the crazy fucked up shit the CIA has done in it's shady past for instance. But in general I'd agree with you. There are quite a few people with their head in the sand, even after things come to light.

[Silver]

Pointing out flaws in other country's doesn't wipe away the flaws in your own country. And at least here, We the People, can actually do something about it. That we the people allow for some of the shit our government does, is what IMO is disgusting.

I personally don't allow it.

I fight the Department of Homeland Security, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, Department of Justice, and Department of State for a living.

I currently have 47 suits pending before the various circuit courts charging our government with Constitutional violations.

What makes our country the greatest that has ever existed is that our government is subject to judicial review. Is China? Is Russia?

I acknowledge that our Government and our country have issues, but at least our citizens have the right of vocal dissent. The very thing that you are doing on this message board without fear of reprimand would get you tortured and killed if you lived in China, and don't you ever forget it.

[Diraker]

/eyeroll

And now you are lecturing me?

Spare me.

[Kydorias]

And while you can appreciate making sure that everyone is given their due notice to do right by everyone, in a country of a billion people such liberties are extremely cumbersom and are cut in favour of what is an extremely efficient process.Wow. I'm totally blown away. Obviously any argument in favor of individual rights vs. the "collective good" will be wasted on you so I won't even try any more.

[Kydorias]

Pointing out flaws in other country's doesn't wipe away the flaws in your own country. And at least here, We the People, can actually do something about it.Diraker, I truly hope you don't buy into all that drivel you paraphrased from the Chinese press release. Talk about stones & glass houses...

I'm not really understanding how this thread turned into an anti-US rant. I think any person on either side of the issue would admit that every country has it's dark periods in history, certainly the US included.

But when it comes to individual freedoms, the US is still among the top countries in the world. Trying to compare the US to China in that category is almost an exercise in absurdity.

[Mutt]

Wow. I'm totally blown away. Obviously any argument in favor of individual rights vs. the "collective good" will be wasted on you so I won't even try any more.lol so because I think that making changes from communism to democracy in a country of a billion people isnt an easy task its a waste?

Tell me, what is the largest a country has ever been when it switched from one form of government to a democracy?

[Mutt]

But when it comes to individual freedoms, the US is still among the top countries in the world. True enough

Trying to compare the US to China in that category is almost an exercise in absurdity.In your day to day life what freedoms are you denied?

[Silver]

We the People, can actually do something about it. That we the people allow for some of the shit our government does, is what IMO is disgusting.

Diraker,

In all seriousness, what do you suggest people do on a personal level to combat "the shit our government does", and more specifically, what do you do?

[Ablate]

Join a Militia and get ready for Civil War II

[Kydorias]

lol so because I think that making changes from communism to democracy in a country of a billion people isnt an easy task its a waste?Your statement assumes that a country is actually trying to change. I don't see that happening at all in China. Granted the markets are a hell of a lot more free & open than they were 10-20 years ago. That's great. But I don't see a whole lot of progress being made in the area of free speech and human rights.

But Mutt, lets revisit this really scary statement:

And while you can appreciate making sure that everyone is given their due notice to do right by everyone, in a country of a billion people such liberties are extremely cumbersom and are cut in favour of what is an extremely efficient process.The problem I have with this viewpoint is who is to judge which liberties are cumbersome? How far do we cut liberties in order to achieve these "extremely efficient processes"? And who is to judge the population level at which we cut liberties in favor of efficient processes (or "good of the state/nation/community)? More efficient processes can be achieved by any size group ranging from two to infinity depending on how uniformly the members suborn to the will of the majority. Is that really what you are advocating? Because it sure sounds like it.

Tell me, what is the largest a country has ever been when it switched from one form of government to a democracy?It really doesn't matter Mutt. The US was relatively tiny compared to modern day China when it went through its transition to Democracy. And any student of history will tell you that it was incredibly chaotic. The size of the population does not correlate with the "controls" that need to be put in place when going through a massive cultural/political/governmental shift. And anyway, I still don't understand why you are talking about a Chinese "switch to Democracy" because I certainly see no such activity taking place.

[Kydorias]

In your day to day life what freedoms are you denied?Its hard for me to define what freedoms I am denied since I feel like I have every freedom I can reasonably expect to possess without infringing on other's freedoms.

[Diraker]

Diraker,

In all seriousness, what do you suggest people do on a personal level to combat "the shit our government does", and more specifically, what do you do?

1) stop voting for politicians who are more likely to do those things
2) stop cheerleading for those who do those things
3) stop heralding our nation's free speech while deriding those willing use it

[Silver]

1) stop voting for politicians who are more likely to do those things
2) stop cheerleading for those who do those things
3) stop heralding our nation's free speech while deriding those willing use it

So in essence you are suggesting that we do nothing.

[Mourne]

U.S. OF KKK A! LAWLAWLAWLAWLAW

sorry, hannity is on the radio still playing that shit.

/runs and hides.

[Diraker]

So in essence you are suggesting that we do nothing.

IMO you are directing your anger at the wrong person. I only posted the chinese thing because it was relevant information. I figured instead of quoting 7 pages of stuff, that I'd paraphrase as I was reading through it. And rather than just posting the info I'd add some IMO appropriate idioms/quotes that can be applied to everyone involved. I even used a "we" because as an american I do have a say in what my government does..unlike the chinese people. This fact IMO makes transgressions by our governent, to me, that much more biting. Of the people, for the people, and by the people applies to our transgressions as well.

[Silver]

I'm not angry...

I'm just bored, as it is Friday at 4:35 pm, and I can't wait to get out of the office for a drink.

[Kydorias]

1) stop voting for politicians who are more likely to do those thingsYour definition of "the shit our government does" quite likely differs from mine. Therefore the politicians that you demand a cease-vote on will be the ones that I support and vote for and vice-versa.
2) stop cheerleading for those who do those thingsSame same. You rail against, I cheerlead for.
3) stop heralding our nation's free speech while deriding those willing use itWell start making sense and I'll stop deriding you ;)

[Konrad]

So good to have Kyd back.