A message from the President

[Diraker]

National Day of Prayer, 2008

A Proclamation by the President of the United States of America

America trusts in the abiding power of prayer and asks for the wisdom to discern God's will in times of joy and of trial. As we observe this National Day of Prayer, we recognize our dependence on the Almighty, we thank Him for the many blessings He has bestowed upon us, and we put our country's future in His hands.

From our Nation's humble beginnings, prayer has guided our leaders and played a vital role in the life and history of the United States. Americans of many different faiths share the profound conviction that God listens to the voice of His children and pours His grace upon those who seek Him in prayer. By surrendering our lives to our loving Father, we learn to serve His eternal purposes, and we are strengthened, refreshed, and ready for all that may come.

On this National Day of Prayer, we ask God's continued blessings on our country. This year's theme, "Prayer! America's Strength and Shield," is taken from Psalm 28:7, "The Lord is my strength and my shield; my heart trusts in him, and I am helped." On this day, we pray for the safety of our brave men and women in uniform, for their families, and for the comfort and recovery of those who have been wounded.

The Congress, by Public Law 100-307, as amended, has called on our Nation to reaffirm the role of prayer in our society by recognizing each year a "National Day of Prayer."

NOW, THEREFORE, I, GEORGE W. BUSH, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 1, 2008, as a National Day of Prayer. I ask the citizens of our Nation to give thanks, each according to his or her own faith, for the freedoms and blessings we have received and for God's continued guidance, comfort, and protection. I invite all Americans to join in observing this day with appropriate programs, ceremonies, and activities.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this twenty-first day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand eight, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-second.

GEORGE W. BUSH

[Zorat]

Is this for real?

[Diraker]

Sorry I forgot to link it. Yes, it's for real.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2008/04/20080422-6.html

[Shokar]

Didn't he do this back in 2002 with a National Day of Prayer?

[Soushia]

So let me get this straight...

We are mired in an unpopular war that could go on for 100 years...

Oil is at an all time high...

Gas is surging to an all time high...

Food is becomming scarce...

Water is becomming scarce...

Housing is at a 30 year low...

Unemployemnt is on the rise...

Nuclear prolifiration is accelerating across the globe...

The polar ice caps are disappearing...




I KNOW...LETS DISTRACT ALL THE SHEEP WITH A $600 CHECK AND A DAY OF PRAYER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


And this my friends is why I have been memorizing the Canadian National Anthem in anticipation of getting the hell out of here before total implosion occurs!

[Diraker]

I don't recall when it started (2002 sounds about right) but it's been going on every year since. Some secular folk counter the National Day of Prayer with a National Day of Reason where they go donate blood. I think they do it in the spirit of the great orator of the late 1800's, Robert Ingersoll who said, "Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."

[Mutt]

Soush Calgary, unemployment is less than 3.5% and there is a shortage of tradesmen

[Soushia]

I have stupidly been waiting for the George Bush led economy to turn around so I can sell my condo and get out of this craphole!

Unfortunately...he has the fecal touch and everything he sticks his hands in turns to shit so I might be waiting for a while longer.

And actually, the residential builder I was working for here in the states (ashtonwoodshomes.com) is owned and operated by a parent company in canada (greatgulfhones.com) so I have an angle to work.

The trick is I have to get my passport back from the state department and get permission to leave the country before applying for a foreign work visa.

America is much like being married to someone you don't like all that much. One day you wake up and realize you have to get the hell out...but the hastle and the cost are so high it becomes simple to decide to stick around just a little while longer.

[Thaelcron]

gas is predicted to be at $7-8 dollars a gallon in 2 years. probably gonna have to build a damn house beside my workplace just so i can walk.

[Thaelcron]

BTW write in Jessie Ventura for President. fuck everyone else. i agree with him that all of congress, etc is just taking favors from everyone else to line their own pockets and the hell with the country.

i guess it's pretty bad when a former pro wrestler and navy seal is more knowledgeable than the guys who were raised to be members of congress and that.

[Soushia]

If he didn't have that palsy which makes people feel he got hit in the head one too many times with a chair I might actually vote for him.

That, and the fact that he moved to mexico to grow out his hair, hit the bong, and surf every day! :smile_ok:

Unfortunately...the only people in the public eye who ever make any sense all come off like wignuts and whackadoos (i.e. Forbes, Nader, Perot, Dean, Ventura). It is sad but true...the machine/ government/ corporate structure doesn't want to see things change because it disturbs their profit margins which makes shareholders flip out every quarter.

Welcome to America...where our national religion is Capitalisim and Christianity is just a convenient hobby and shield to use while worshiping the one true american god...CASH!

[Diraker]

Although I know that some folk have already considered and rationalized this away but Matthew 6:5 and on pretty much says that when praying you should do so in private and that to do so in public is hypocritical and showy; "so that men may see you" (paraphrase).

Anyway politics taints religion. I urge people to reject the National Day of Prayer. For my part I've written letters to my congressman and local government officials. Yay for me.

[Aradorn]

thats not what that passage is talking about diraker. Jesus was referring to the jews who stand out on street corners and pray to get attention

[Diraker]

Yeah and Jesus says, "do not be like the hypocrites who stand around and pray so that men may see." That people should figuratively "go into their closets" to pray. Paraphrased again.

Matthew 6:5 And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full.

6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyway I don't care if people pray. I don't care if elected officials pray. I care when elected official and representatives of the government ask that I pray. They step over their bounds. You know damn well that if the government asked people to pray to Allah there would be hell to pay. Or that if the government asked people not to pray...eeesh.

This year (and perhaps in previous years) there were religious groups that were against the National Day of Prayer. Some are going the separation of church and state route. Some are going on that it's unseemly; that it was in poor form to, for example, have Jame Dobson's of Focus on the (your own damn) Family wife was head of the National Day of Prayer's task force where she had people sign overtly Christian pledges. Ya know "I affirm that I believe Jesus is the savior and Son of God. I believe that salvation can only be achieved through Jesus Christ" etc. That the rhetoric surrounding this National Day of Prayer reeks of fundamentalist Christianity. And others are going with the idea that giant mega prayers are for show and are the exact type of things their religious hero warned them about.

Bush made a statement where he repeated the fabricated historical event which claims that George Washington added "so help me God" to the end of his inaugural acceptance. This is a fabrication. We went over this on these forums but it turns out that the first instance of George Washington saying this occurred 70 years after the fact. Maybe later I post Bush's speech for the National Day of Prayer.

And I've mentioned this before that IMO (yes MY opinion, feel free the disagree) that when certain religious folk want to insert their God and Jesus into the government that they are doing so to mark the territory as Christian. Like some animals mark their territory so do some religionists. I call it, after the Nirvana song, territorial pissings.

[Soushia]

I'm begining to think that the whole organized religion thing has nothing to do with faith or belief or morality. Rather, it is soley built, predicated upon, and worshiped as nothing more than a vain form of hypocrisy at its worst:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/04/28/2008-04-28_cardinal_egan_criticizes_rudy_giuliani_f.html

So unless I'm wrong after reading both stories, the gist is this:

Bush declares a national day of prayer to coincide with the Pope visiting America. This takes the focus of the media off of the total implosion of our economy much like passing another ammendment against flag burning.

So then Gulianni, like the "good catholic" he is goes and receives communion from the pope and promptly gets slammed by the head of the church in NYC because Gulianni is pro-choice and has been divorced twice.

Now the hypocrisy is this:

#1) The current pope was a certified, registered, and avid enthusiast in the 3rd reich and the Nazi movement when he was younger.

#2) The current pope, as a member of the vatican hierarchy, was the person who instructed all church leaders to deny all child rape claims untill the statute of limitations expired so as to not cut into the yearly profit margin of the church.

#3) As a representative of the pope, cardinal Egan carried out these instructions for over a decade.

Now you tell me...who needs morality? The pope for acting in concert with murdering elitist racists? The church as a whole for excusing and helping to cover up the rape of thousands of children? Cardinal Egan for supporting a decleration to cover-up mass child rape? Gulianni for getting divorced twice? Bush for being "the decider" and deciding to pander to child rapists, hypocrites, and tax exempt thieves?

If the catholic church was a large daycare company and was caught raping thousands of children...the pope would be looking at life in prison. But since it is the church...we just look the other way and dedicate an entire day to the worship of such a top notch institution.


Honestly people...faith is a good thing. But don't be a hypocrite and then try to cram morality down my throat to try to make yourself feel better about supporting the single most corrupt social institution of the 8,000year history of mankind.

[Dong]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPMS6tGOACo

[Mutt]

lol, mike meyers rocks

[Thaelcron]

this country was founded on Christianity, all the government buildings, money, etc all have God listed someplace. it will always be that way, this isn't the middle east where most of the country faces east and prays for hours on end. a very large majority of this country is catholic or protestant(methodist, Lutheran, whatever), so that's who they are gonna appeal to.

i haven't been to church since i was 18 and moved out, but i could give a rat's ass that the pres said to pray to your God(whichever religion you are). everyone gets all fucking bent outta shape over shit that's said or read somewhere now. all i can say is stop being a fucking pussy and grow the fuck up. i hate this pussy whipped political correct bullshit this country is going through right now. everyone is blaming someone else for their problems.

[Thaelcron]

I'm begining to think that the whole organized religion thing has nothing to do with faith or belief or morality. Rather, it is soley built, predicated upon, and worshiped as nothing more than a vain form of hypocrisy at its worst:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/2008/04/28/2008-04-28_cardinal_egan_criticizes_rudy_giuliani_f.html

So unless I'm wrong after reading both stories, the gist is this:

Bush declares a national day of prayer to coincide with the Pope visiting America. This takes the focus of the media off of the total implosion of our economy much like passing another ammendment against flag burning.

So then Gulianni, like the "good catholic" he is goes and receives communion from the pope and promptly gets slammed by the head of the church in NYC because Gulianni is pro-choice and has been divorced twice.

Now the hypocrisy is this:

#1) The current pope was a certified, registered, and avid enthusiast in the 3rd reich and the Nazi movement when he was younger.

#2) The current pope, as a member of the vatican hierarchy, was the person who instructed all church leaders to deny all child rape claims untill the statute of limitations expired so as to not cut into the yearly profit margin of the church.

#3) As a representative of the pope, cardinal Egan carried out these instructions for over a decade.

Now you tell me...who needs morality? The pope for acting in concert with murdering elitist racists? The church as a whole for excusing and helping to cover up the rape of thousands of children? Cardinal Egan for supporting a decleration to cover-up mass child rape? Gulianni for getting divorced twice? Bush for being "the decider" and deciding to pander to child rapists, hypocrites, and tax exempt thieves?

If the catholic church was a large daycare company and was caught raping thousands of children...the pope would be looking at life in prison. But since it is the church...we just look the other way and dedicate an entire day to the worship of such a top notch institution.


Honestly people...faith is a good thing. But don't be a hypocrite and then try to cram morality down my throat to try to make yourself feel better about supporting the single most corrupt social institution of the 8,000year history of mankind.


it's not that everyone looks the other way, the catholic church is more powerful than any government. the knights templar are the only ones to ever have the church by the balls, but they were disbanded and all killed. another thing is, all institutions are corrupt. that's just how humans are.

the difference with the church is they use God as a way to keep the masses inline. could you imagine how fucked up everything would be if humans didn't have the fear of God smiting them or going to Hell? that's why the church gets by with the shit it does, because it's kept people from being ignorant savages for centuries. governments and kingdoms have come and gone but the church is the one constant.

heh i sound like i support the church and while i am baptized catholic, i don't believe in God, Allah, Odin, Zeus or whatever God people worship. i consider myself unbiased and in the grey area, so i can see both sides of the arguments. oh well i'm done preaching. but in all seriousness, try and picture a world in which Man has no fear of some omnipotent being kicking his ass for doing bad things.

[Soulein]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPMS6tGOACo

Mike Myers 4tw indeed.

[Diraker]

Although the idea that the US is a Christian Nation is used a lot it simply isn't true. Rather than making a long post discussing the various reasons for why I think this I will instead just point to the one most obvious reason. Article 11 from the Treaty of Tripoli signed by President John Adams in late 1700's.

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

I will also point out, in regards to this idea that God is plastered all over everything in the US, that maybe it's somewhat true, but it hasn't always been that way and it shouldn't always be that way. That it happens to be this way now is IMO unfortunate. Things like "in God We Trust" and "Under God" came about in the 1950's during the lovely time of McCarthy and anti-communism hysteria.

Anyway, for me, the separation of church and state is a fundamental US principle. One that I advocate for and one that I will defend.

[Mutt]

could you imagine how fucked up everything would be if humans didn't have the fear of God smiting them or going to Hell?Now? Or back then?

[Mutt]

Things like "in God We Trust" and "Under God" came about in the 1950's during the lovely time of McCarthy and anti-communism hysteria."In god we trust" wasnt added to the penny until 1909 when it switched from the indian head to the lincoln image. I think that was the earliest instance of that phrase in government.

[Diraker]

"In God We Trust" was on some Civil War Era coins too but the phrase didn't become the US official motto and start appearing on all US money until 1956.

And yeah Mutt good question, these days places like Sweden and Denmark have vast majorities that are unbelievers, yet they do fine. There's an interesting meta study (a study of many studies) which compared western style democracies religiosity of their citizen and the overall health of the society (things like crime rate, murder rate, abortion rate, teen pregnancy, etc...not the best measures but at least in the ball park). Turns out that societies with higher levels of religiosity among their citizenry fair worse compared to societies with low levels of religiosity among their citizenry. Now this doesn't mean that religion makes people bad but it does suggest that societies don't need religion to prevent them from falling apart.

eta: Here's an article talking about the study. Not the best article but it works.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

[Mutt]

much of the core tenants of religions echos those of society itself so its not like religion is breaking ground in keeping people from falling into disarray.

Pretty sure people learned not to kill each other long before it was ever a commandment

[Soulein]

"In God We Trust" was on some Civil War Era coins too but the phrase didn't become the US official motto and start appearing on all US money until 1956.

And yeah Mutt good question, these days places like Sweden and Denmark have vast majorities that are unbelievers, yet they do fine. There's an interesting meta study (a study of many studies) which compared western style democracies religiosity of their citizen and the overall health of the society (things like crime rate, murder rate, abortion rate, teen pregnancy, etc...not the best measures but at least in the ball park). Turns out that societies with higher levels of religiosity among their citizenry fair worse compared to societies with low levels of religiosity among their citizenry. Now this doesn't mean that religion makes people bad but it does suggest that societies don't need religion to prevent them from falling apart.

eta: Here's an article talking about the study. Not the best article but it works.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

Keep in mind Dir, that many of those countries have lower over all populations than ours. There are countries that outright banned religion, and they didn't do so well. However, since the study is focused on Europe, I think it would be safe to say that Liberal Democracy is what improves the situations in said countries... not a presence or lack of certain faiths. Religion is a human institution, and thus subject to humanity's flaws, however the peaceful and humanitarian means of mainstream, modern, religion is an undeniably desirable force in the world.

[Diraker]

Keep in mind Dir, that many of those countries have lower over all populations than ours. There are countries that outright banned religion, and they didn't do so well. However, since the study is focused on Europe, I think it would be safe to say that Liberal Democracy is what improves the situations in said countries... not a presence or lack of certain faiths. Religion is a human institution, and thus subject to humanity's flaws, however the peaceful and humanitarian means of mainstream, modern, religion is an undeniably desirable force in the world.

The study included the US, Canada, Australia, Japan, and many more. And only western style liberal democracies were looked at. Places like Iran or China weren't. So all the studied countries have benefited from being liberal democracies.

As far as banning religion 1) I don't advocate for that and 2) in countries were religion was banned religion was replaced with forced state based dogmatism. One stripe of dogmatism was replaced with another stripe of dogmatism. I think we can both agree that dogmatism stands in the way of tolerance, peace, and general good getting alongs. Where we part ways is probably when I say that religion is, however, the biggest purveyor of dogmatism there is.

As far as religion being a force for good, I would only partly agree. I agree that religion can cause some people to do good when they otherwise wouldn't but at the same time religion can cause people to do bad when they otherwise wouldn't. Gotta take the good with the bad. And of course one could argue that people do bad things like blow up abortion clinics because of some other reason than religion, and I think that is fair. But then it is also fair to say that people aren't charitable because of their religion either, that there's some other reasons for someone to be charitable. For me it comes down to this. Where it is easy to find examples of people doing bad things because of or in name of religion it's impossible to find an example of a moral act performed by a religious person that could not have been performed by a non-religious person. Bottom line is that humans don't need religion to express goodwill and charity towards one another but sometimes religion gets in the way of this.

[Cydus]

just fyi the national day of prayer has been a long running event, I remember going to that stuff when I was in elementary.

wikipedia says it started in 1952.

gg atheistic nutbuckets

[Diraker]

Yeah more 1950's sactimony.

Anyway that wikipedia page looked like an advertisement for the National Day of Prayer Task Force. a.k.a Focus on the Family

Here's the opening line and top image on the page:

The National Day of Prayer is a day designated by the United States Congress as a day when all Christians are asked to come together and pray, especially for their country.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Duerer-Prayer.jpg

Anyway I found Bush's proclimation and comments to be outrageous. I also find the idea of the federal government officially sponsoring prayer as a clear violation of the separation of church and state. One doesn't need to be an atheist to think this.

[Diraker]

BTW write in Jessie Ventura for President. fuck everyone else. i agree with him that all of congress, etc is just taking favors from everyone else to line their own pockets and the hell with the country.

i guess it's pretty bad when a former pro wrestler and navy seal is more knowledgeable than the guys who were raised to be members of congress and that.

When Jesse was governor he refused to issue a proclamation for the National Day of Prayer. Not surprisingly he took flak for it. As governor he also issued some sort of decree or something making a certain day "Indivisible Day" where he basically chastised the idea of forcing children to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

[Mutt]

I saw ventura on larry king the other day. He was making alot of sense with what he was talking about

[Diraker]

So the group Freedom From Religion Foundation has filed a lawsuit against Bush and others regarding this years national day of prayer.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/10/03/AR2008100303196.html

snipped

The Freedom From Religion Foundation sued Friday in U.S. district court, arguing that the president's mandated proclamations calling on Americans to pray violates a constitutional ban on government officials endorsing religion.

The day of prayer, held each year on the first Thursday of May, creates a "hostile environment for nonbelievers, who are made to feel as if they are political outsiders," the lawsuit said.

The national proclamation issued this year asked God's blessings on our country and called for Americans to observe the day with appropriate programs, ceremonies and activities.

I doubt much will come of this (other than political backlash against secularists) but I like that people fight for what is right regardless of what the factually difficient naysayers might say.

eta: link to the FFRF's press release which has a link (pdf) to the actual court complaint...I find these interesting because they go over the reasoning behind the decision to take legal action.

http://www.ffrf.org/news/2008/NationalDayOfPrayer.php

[Diraker]

Old thread but a major update.

FFRF has beaten Obama and the DoJ. The National Day of Prayer is unconstitutional.

http://host.madison.com/news/local/crime_and_courts/article_95640a20-48d0-11df-8b5c-001cc4c002e0.html

Watch for the same people who called this lawsuit "trivial" "a waste of time" and "inconsequential" make a lot of noise now.

[Silver]

Nice!

[Mourne]

hahaha that's awesome.

[Diraker]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/presidential-proclamation-national-day-prayer-0

For Immediate Release April 30, 2010
Presidential Proclamation--National Day of Prayer

A PROCLAMATION

Throughout our history, whether in times of great joy and thanksgiving, or in times of great challenge and uncertainty, Americans have turned to prayer. In prayer, we have expressed gratitude and humility, sought guidance and forgiveness, and received inspiration and assistance, both in good times and in bad.

On this day, let us give thanks for the many blessings God has bestowed upon our Nation. Let us rejoice for the blessing of freedom both to believe and to live our beliefs, and for the many other freedoms and opportunities that bring us together as one Nation. Let us ask for wisdom, compassion, and discernment of justice as we address the great challenges of our time.

We are blessed to live in a Nation that counts freedom of conscience and free exercise of religion among its most fundamental principles, thereby ensuring that all people of goodwill may hold and practice their beliefs according to the dictates of their consciences. Prayer has been a sustaining way for many Americans of diverse faiths to express their most cherished beliefs, and thus we have long deemed it fitting and proper to publicly recognize the importance of prayer on this day across the Nation.

Let us remember in our thoughts and prayers those suffering from natural disasters in Haiti, Chile, and elsewhere, and the people from those countries and from around the world who have worked tirelessly and selflessly to render aid. Let us pray for the families of the West Virginia miners, and the people of Poland who so recently and unexpectedly lost many of their beloved leaders. Let us pray for the safety and success of those who have left home to serve in our Armed Forces, putting their lives at risk in order to make the world a safer place. As we remember them, let us not forget their families and the substantial sacrifices that they make every day. Let us remember the unsung heroes who struggle to build their communities, raise their families, and help their neighbors, for they are the wellspring of our greatness. Finally, let us remember in our thoughts and prayers those people everywhere who join us in the aspiration for a world that is just, peaceful, free, and respectful of the dignity of every human being.

NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, by virtue of the authority vested in me by the Constitution and laws of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim May 6, 2010, as a National Day of Prayer. I call upon the citizens of our Nation to pray, or otherwise give thanks, in accordance with their own faiths and consciences, for our many freedoms and blessings, and I invite all people of faith to join me in asking for God's continued guidance, grace, and protection as we meet the challenges before us.

IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand this thirtieth day of April, in the year of our Lord two thousand ten, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and thirty-fourth.

BARACK OBAMA

My prayer.

Dear god, please protect me from those who believe in you.

[Silver]

My prayer.

Dear god, please protect me from those who believe in you.

Love it!